Frager Factor

Sunday, October 03, 2010

Bruce Turkel Part 3: How To Get Direct Advertisers For Your GEO Domain

"You know what they say. A billion dollars here, a billion dollars there, pretty soon you're talking about real money."


Part 2 of 3-

Today's guest is Bruce Turkel. Bruce is the founder and executive creative director of the brand management firm, Turkel. He has been building valuable brands for over 25 years, and now specializes in travel and tourism advertising. Bruce has used social media and vanity domains to transform Miami, the Orlando area, the Mississippi Gulf Coast, and other destinations into must-see vacation hot spots.

Bruce's books include: "Building Brand Value," "Brain Darts," and "New Design Miami." He has been featured in "The New York Times," "Communication Arts," "Advertising Age," "Ad Week," "USA Today," and "Graphic Design USA." And he has appeared on CNN, ABC, CBS and NPR. An accomplished and enthusiastic musician, Bruce also can be seen fronting the Miami rock and blues band, Black Star. He is a graduate of the University of Florida.


Continued from yesterday- Jeff Zbar's conversation with Bruce Turkel on Domain Success.

Jeff: You're a career marketing guy. Tell me what your first foray was into online marketing.

Bruce: You know, it's funny you say that. We started . . . well, let me even go further back than that. In 1983, when I first started my business, I got pneumonia and I went to see the doctor. He told me I had pneumonia and he said to me, "You're going to have to be in bed for two weeks." I said, "I can't be in bed for two weeks. I just started a business." He said, "Okay. Well, go to work and then you're going to be in bed for two months." So I decided, "You know what? I guess this two week thing is not so bad." And a friend of mine had just bought a Mac. So he said, "Look, if you're going to be laying in bed for two weeks, why don't you figure out how to use it?" And I did. And so we used, believe it or not, MacPaint in 1985 to create our first brochure.

I think we were doing social media trying to contact people. We were doing newsletters that we sent out on disks in 1990. You know, we were kind of ahead of the curve, but we never really realized it. You can be on the leading edge or you can be on the bleeding edge. And I think our first forays were on the bleeding edge. We enjoyed it. We learned a lot. But boy, we didn't make very much money at it.

Jeff: Yeah. The tough part about being on the bleeding edge is you're way out there, the pioneer, taking the bows and arrows, taking the barbs and the like. How long did it take to really catch up? Because you've made a true success for yourself, and more importantly your clients, working on that now leading edge still. How long did it take for the market to catch up?

Bruce: Well, in '94 we would go to our clients and we would say, "Okay. There's a thing we can do together because you guys need a website and we need to learn how to build websites. So we will do them for you at cost." And they would say, "Why do we need websites?" And I'd say, "You know what? To be perfectly honest, I don't know. But I know that you're going to need these, so let us do it for you." And, of course, websites were not on their radar screen, so they didn't hire us to do it.

And then two or three years later, I'd be in their office talking about an ad campaign or something we were doing for them, and they'd say, "Oh, let us show you this really cool new thing we're doing." And it was a website. And I would say, "Why wouldn't you do that with us?" And they'd say, "You guys do that?" Because of course when I had presented it to them, it didn't mean anything to them. But we started that far back.

Of course 1999, as far as I am concerned, it was God's way of giving money directly from venture capitalists to advertising agencies. It was a great period of time for us and then the whole thing blew up. Then we figured out how to actually go from all the craziness and all the hype into real ways of generating revenue, of getting interest, and getting people to visit our clients and spend money with them. Because the whole eyeball thing is terrific, but you know what, if you're not getting the green tickets, the rest of it, as far as I'm concerned, is not real.

Jeff: Absolutely. Recently, Owen and myself on my blog, on yours and on others have gotten a lot of traction and play out of the mind map concept. I wanted to jump into that a little bit before we get too far in, because I think it's a great marketing tool. A lot of what people believe is . . . they don't believe they are either marketers. They don't believe they necessarily need to be salespeople. Sometimes they think, "If I build it, it will come." Talk to me about the importance of marketing, the importance of building brand value, the importance of how all this really works, especially for domainers in a market that's so hyper competitive right now. We see it on the screen, "The Seven Steps to Building Brand Value," which is a key to many of the presentations you do and the title of your book, "Building Brand Value." Talk about the value and importance of marketing to especially people who are out there on the front lines doing this kind of work.

Bruce: Well, that's interesting. You've asked about seven questions all in one – mind maps, marketing, the importance of branding, if you build it they will come. Look, "if you build, they will come" used to work because there was so little stuff up there. Remember when "Wired" magazine used to put URLs and people wouldn't even know what they were. I mean, some guy registered McDonalds.com and just kept an ongoing article in "Wired" wondering when McDonald's was going to come to him and say, "Hey, that's ours. We own it, you can't have it." Clearly, those days are gone. So the whole nonsense about "if you build it, they will come," there was a time for that and we all profited from it. But those days are past.

The idea of creating a mind map, mind map is simply another way of organizing information. I have an art degree. I don't have a business . . . well, I have a business degree too. But I majored in art and I look at things very visually. So for me, keeping notes in a mind map format, like what you see on screen, is much more intuitive, and it's a much better way for me to understand what's going on. The particular one you're looking at is a mind map of a presentation I gave just a couple weeks ago in Chicago to the Illinois Governor's Conference on Tourism. And this wonderfully talented woman, Brandy Agerbeck, who in fact I got in touch with through Twitter and then stayed in touch with on email -- it's a very new tech, 21st century relationship -- but while I was speaking, she stood behind me and she actually drew this mind map in real time. When I was done, she was done and she mapped my whole talk. And if you start at the Bach and the Sonny Boy Williamson up on the top, and you just go around counterclockwise one through seven, you'll get the whole speech. And more importantly, the whole seven points that not only did I write the book on, but really we counsel all of our clients on, we run our business on. And it's the clearer, simple, profound way of building a brand.

Now, your last question was the importance of marketing in branding. The importance of marketing is clear. If you don't sell things, people aren't going to buy them. And it's nice for people to say, "I'm not a marketer," or "I'm not a salesman." But nothing happens until somebody sells something. And all marketing is, is a way of getting people interested in what it is you have to sell, but more importantly, the idea of building a brand. If you've already got a business, if you've already done operationally most of the things you can do, then the only place to build value in your company, the only way to make your company more valuable is to build your brand.

And quite simply, a brand is not a logo. It's not a tag line. A brand is the perception that your consumer or your potential consumer has of your business. If you have a good brand, that perception is high and your product is worth more. If you have a bad brand or an unmanaged brand, that perception is low and your product is worth less. The wonderful thing about branding is if you've done most of the right things operationally, as most of us who are in business have done, branding becomes the least expensive way of generating more revenue and making your business more valuable.

Jeff: Let's spin that to where many of the people who are on board today, they're domainers. They're interested in positioning their domains, positioning their portfolio as something that is of value to marketers, something that is of value to Madison Avenue. How do you think Madison Avenue and the greater -- and I use Madison Avenue; it could be Oak Avenue in Coconut Grove, Florida or in Seattle or in Minneapolis or whatever -- but how do you think Madison Avenue and the greater agency business, ad agency business has hit or missed the opportunity with domains?

Bruce: Well, the interesting thing about Madison Avenue; there's an incredible dichotomy. And, of course, I understand that by Madison Avenue you mean the advertising agency industry in general. There's an incredible dichotomy going on. On the one hand they know, they understand that they need to be involved in this brave new world of online, of Internet, of interactive. On the other hand, they have no idea how to do it.

Let me just take a second or two seconds to give you a quick history of the advertising industry. The advertising agency industry was started in 1890, when a guy who created a farm journal that was selling farm implements realized that he couldn't get to all the farmers himself, but he could convince other manufacturers -- tractors, seed companies, and the like -- to put advertisements, at the time they were playbills, you know, the kind of things you would hang on posters on walls; to put them in his publication. And so he became an agent, thus the word advertising and the word agent. And so he would be an agent of all these different companies, and he would go out and sell their products around the country through his farm journal. That, of course, became the Sears and Roebuck Catalog.

And if you think about it, the business had not changed in a hundred years. At some point, they started representing newspaper -- no different than the farm journal. Then they represented radio in the '20s. Okay, it's a little bit different. You heard it instead of saw it. And then in the '50s, they added television. Okay, so you saw it and heard it instead of just saw it. And then they added billboards and magazines and the like. But really, the business did not change until the 1990s, when all of a sudden the Internet came in. Because what the Internet did, and nobody realized it in the early '90s, but they certainly realize it now, is that it gave a lot of people the opportunity to reach folks, which you could do earlier only through advertising. Now, of course through Twitter, through websites, through my blog, through everything else, I can reach people and never pay a penny to a magazine, a newspaper, or television station.

Jeff: Right.

Bruce: It also gave the consumer the opportunity to talk back. That had never happened before. Yeah, you could write a letter to the editor. You could write a complaint letter to Proctor & Gamble if you weren't happy with their product. But, for the most part, you had no way of talking back. All of a sudden that changed. And the third major change was we went from being in the broadcast industry -- meaning we would run an ad on one of the three major channels -- most people were watching. So you were casting broadly, hence the term broadcast. All of a sudden you could narrowcast. Well, you could narrowcast a little bit in the old world. If you wanted sports fans, you could run an ad in "Sports Illustrated." If you wanted young men, you could run an ad in "Playboy." If you wanted housewives, you could run an ad in "Good Housekeeping." But mostly you were broadcasting.

Now, through the Web, you could reach just one arm, harmonica playing midgets if that's who your audience was. All of a sudden you could reach a whole different market. So the business changed completely. Here's the big problem. Most agencies haven't figured it out. The reason? Because they have the word advertising and agency in their name. I mean, I just wrote a blog post on newspapers. I said, "The problem with the newspaper business is they have the word paper in the name." So newspapers think they have to print their information on paper. If they realize that what we want to buy is the news, not the paper, all of a sudden it would change their business model. The problem with advertising agencies is they have the word advertising, meaning they create ads, and they have the word agency, meaning they get a percentage, they're an agent, in their name. So you as domain owners, you as geodomainers have both an incredible opportunity to offer these agencies something they're clamoring for, which is a way to figure out how to get into the brave, new world. But at the same time, you've got a problem. They don't get it. They know they need to, but they don't get it. People don't like to change.

Jeff: Right. We've seen that. One of the things we've seen is the smart people out there, well, the smart domainers, the people who really own what could become potentially powerful domains to powerful brands, are realizing that they are now not domainers. They are media companies, fledgling media companies. We had a conversation earlier discussing the comment, "What is a newspaper or an ad agency?" The difference between, as we had comments before, AT&T versus Disney and their market cap, and the valuation of them, where one is just the distributor where the other one becomes a content company. And people don't care, I guess, how they get their content, how they get their stuff. But they want their stuff, so it doesn't matter how it's coming to them. But they want that content, and it probably positions a domainer in a much more favorable position. Talk a little bit about how people need to see themselves as small domainers as opposed to an AT&T or as opposed to, in this example, Disney.com.

Bruce: Well, Jeff, your point makes perfect sense. I mean we have a bunch of folks out in the world somewhere right now listening to what we have to say. And some of them are sitting on their couch with their laptops connected wirelessly. And some of them are using twisted pair and some have Ethernet cables plugged in. But the bottom line is they don't really care about the distribution vehicle. None of y'all who are out there care about how you're hearing us. What you care about is the data, hopefully that we're going to give you some information that you can use to make your life better. If you're using wireless and you're sitting on your back porch, you might be very happy with that. Or you might be happy that you're plugged in. The point is that the distribution does not matter.

AT&T provides that distribution in lots of different ways. But Disney provides something very different. Disney provides Mickey Mouse. And Mickey Mouse, Steamboat Willey originally, could be on a grainy, old 8 millimeter piece of movie film. It could be on a brand new Blu-ray disc. It could be done with a guy in a mouse suit who's on ice skates at the Ice Capades. Or it can be stamped onto a lunch box that's made in Indonesia and sold in Russia. The consumer doesn't care and Disney doesn't care.

Nicholas Negroponte said it, I think back in 1996, when he wrote a great book. It's actually still relevant even though it's 15 years old, a book called "Being Digital." And he talked about that. He talked about the fact that content is king. So whoever owns the domain name, you have two things at one time. You have the distribution vehicle, meaning if people are interested in the particular location that you own the name for, you own the distribution, because they're coming to you first. They're going to come to St.Louis.com or Paris.com or SanFrancisco.com first.

But then you could own the content because you could aggregate all the information about your destination. In fact, what you would become is a virtual online convention and visitors bureau, a CVB or DMO, is the new term; a destination marketing organization. Why do I know about that? Because we have five or six CVBs or TCs, tourism commissions as our clients. Miami, Puerto Rico and as Jeff said, we've done work with Mississippi, Kissimmee, Alabama, El Salvador, on and on and on and on. And the DMAI, the Destination Marketing Association International is our client. So we deal with those people all the time. But the fascinating thing is if you control the distribution by having the .com geodomain and you control the data; you become a virtual CVB, a virtual convention and visitors bureau.

Jeff: Let's explore that. We've had Skip Hoagland, for example, on here who controls some very powerful, well-known brands in the geospace. And he has turned from what was a printed big vacation booklet or visitors guide once you're in the market -- and you have to be in the market to use a printed guide -- to a virtual guide, an online guide for these destinations. He's selling ads. He's selling spots on, you know, links on the sites. He has all these different venues, restaurants, destinations, marketing ops, whatever the case may be that are there. How can people capitalize on turning their branded domains that they may own, these geodomains into virtual destination sites that may compete with the CVBs? But because they're not trademarked in the sense that you can't trademark Miami or Orlando or whatever, how can they capitalize on this? How do you see people taking advantage of that and the ways they can sell and reach out to make a profit creating a powerful geodomain brand?

Bruce: Boy, Jeff, you are the master of asking 10 questions in one.

Jeff: Oh, it is one question there. It just got all wrapped up into . . .

Bruce: Let me try to answer those. First of all, if anybody wants to do this, I would be happy to partner with them because the opportunities that I see in this are absolutely unbelievable. Pick a destination, Jeff. Just throw out a city name so I'm not being biased here.

Jeff: Let's say Tampa Bay, Florida.

Bruce: Okay. So if I owned Tampa.com, here is what I would do. First thing I would do is I would accept the fact that anybody interested in going on a trip to Tampa, before they went to Google and put in Tampa, they would put in www.tampa.com and they would find me. And of course I could target, and I could get a lot of some revenue that way. But the other thing I would think of is, wait a second, if they're all coming to me and they all want to spend money, and they all want to find out about Tampa, then I have a real opportunity to generate revenue.

So the first thing I would do is I would look at as many online destination websites as possible. And I would see what they're showing because let's hope that they're smart enough to be showing what their consumers are interested in. What are their consumers interested in? They want to go to hotels. They want to go to restaurants. They want to buy what Tampa stands for. They want to have a Tampa experience. So I would replicate that Tampa experience online. But I wouldn't do it for free because we're talking about the opportunity here to build a very big and very profitable business.

So the first thing I would do is I would try to partner with the Tampa Convention and Visitors Bureau. And I happen to know them and they're pretty smart people, so they would probably smart enough to partner with you. But let's say for argument's sake that they would not. That they'd say, "Oh, no, no, no. We own Tampa.org or Tampa.net or Tampa.travel, or whatever we own. We don't need you." Okay, very good. So the next thing I would do is I would find out what the major hotels were in the area. And I would go to those hotels and I would say, "Look, we own Tampa.com and people wanting to come to Tampa are going to want to come to us and they're going to want to book hotel rooms." So I would create a click model no different than Google or Kayak have created, where I wouldn't get paid for people who book, because whether people book or not is not my business. I would get paid by people who click through and I would sell that access to those hotels. I would actually have a sales force, either my own or I would go find one in Tampa, to go out and sell to them.

Next thing I would do, I would go find the restaurants that appeal to the tourist industry and I would make the same deal with them. Next thing I would do, I would go talk to the attractions and I would make the same deal with them. I would also talk to the attractions that aren't that far away from Tampa. And if you think about Tampa for a second, you realize that while Bush Gardens is in Tampa, Disney World is only 45 minutes away from Tampa; which means Universal, which means all the other Orlando opportunities. So I would go sell to them.

Next thing I would do, I would create an online gift shop. I would sell T-shirts and hats, all with the Tampa logo, because as you said very clearly, the Tampa name, as powerful as it is, is. not a trademark. The City of Tampa does not own the name. If you could, we would own Miami and then "CSI Miami" and "Miami Vice" and Will Smith with his song "Miami" would have to pay us money. So I know from unfortunate experience that I can't make money that way. But the benefit to the geodomainer is that you can. So I would sell all those Tampa items, which by the way, just to know, I would not warehouse them. I would drop ship them. I would find a manufacturer to partner with me and send them out.

But I would go a step further. What does Tampa stand for? Well, one of the things they sell in Tampa is sponges, because they have the sponge divers, the Greek sponge divers there. So I would sell sponge products online. The other thing Tampa sells is cigars, because Cuban refugees left Cuba not in the 1960s when came to Miami, but in the '20s and '30s. And they went to Igor City, in Tampa. So I would have an online cigar store.

I would build a virtual rendition of the city online. I think it would be a phenomenal business. And as I said, whoever owns those domains, if they don't know how to do it, give me a call and we will partner.

Jeff: They know more about it now than they did five minutes ago.

Bruce: That's why you hired me, or why you brought me here.

Jeff: [laughs] There you go. Now if we think about Tampa as a destination, as a domain, Tampa.com, Tampa.net, .org, Miami, Orlando, Salt Lake City, whatever, most of those are taken. But there are probably a lot of domains that aren't taken that can capitalize on these sort of niche opportunities, whether it's culture, cuisine, destinations, attractions, lifestyle. Talk to me about what some of the things that you've done in branding, for example, I know in Miami you've worked with Mandarin, you've worked with Loews. You've worked with putting culture and cuisine and gave for example on Miami in order to sub-niche or niche out these markets. How can you work with a domain that is not, it uses that name, but it builds upon it? So CultureMiami, CuisineMiami, some of those. How could people do that and capitalize on that brand extension?

Bruce: Well, if you own the domain name, it's then important to understand who's coming to visit your destination. And by the way, you can get that information from the CVBs at no charge because most of the CVBs have some governmental ownership. They're either private/public partnerships or they're completely governmentally owned. Some of them are completely private, but very few. So they'll give you all the demographic information.

So let's use Miami for example, simply because I know it so well. We have lots of different audiences that come to Miami. Although we are a very international destination and 40% of our audience comes here from other countries, the majority, the one place where most of our travelers come from is the northeast corridor of the United States, in fact, all the way up to Toronto in Canada. We go from Baltimore to Canada. That's our number one market.

But if you niche that further, you find that we get a number of different tourists. So we get tourists coming here, as you said, for our cultural activities. They want to come to go to the opera. They want to come to go to ballet. They want to come to go to concerts. They want to go to museums. We get customers coming here for our sporting events. So they're coming for the Super Bowl. They're coming for the Doral Open. They're coming for the Honda Event. They're coming for the Sony Ericsson Tennis Event. They're coming for the offshore powerboat races, whatever. We have a very large gay and lesbian audience. We have a very large African American audience. A lot of minority travelers come here. So one of the things we have done is we have built a number of different websites, splash pages, if you will, that specifically talk to different audiences. But the interesting thing is they all lead you into the same site.

So I have given as an example a Home Depot. And I think there is an example to put up on the screen if you guys can find it. But if you think about a Home Depot for a minute, Home Depot has lots of different audiences, lots of different people who shop in a Home Depot. Now, Home Depot we all know sells electronics, and they sell hardware and they sell all the different things you need to fix your home. But think about the customers. The customer could be an architect or a designer who is coming to look at the things that are available for their clients. The customer could be a contractor who is coming to buy the things he needs in order to build the porch or to build the second bedroom or to build the new bathroom he was hired for. The customer could be a housewife who's coming to buy some new light fixtures or may be coming to buy a new oven or coming to buy whatever she needs for her house. The customer could be a landscaper, whether it's a guy with a landscaping business or it's a guy who just wants to landscape his yard. But he's coming with his pickup truck and he's going to buy sod and he's going to buy soil and he's going to buy plants and he's going to buy shovels. The customer could be a hobbyist, a carpenter for example, who's building a cabinet and he's coming to buy an electric saw. You get the picture.

Jeff: Absolutely.

Bruce: So you drive into the Home Depot parking lot. There's one sign, Home Depot. There's one front door and all these people filter in, which is no different, really, than a website that all these different people filter in. But think about it for a minute. Home Depot could also take that same store and design it as a giant octagon. Like the Pentagon, but it's eight sides instead. And there'd be different facades. And each facade could be designed for a different consumer. So the architect or interior designer facade would be very designing. It would be very sleek. It would be very elegant. It would have architectural integrity because that would appeal to that particular consumer.

The facade that we want to set up for the contractor would be no nonsense. It would be just concrete block and a metal door. And there would be stencil type letters because that guy is pulling up in his pickup truck in his overalls with his hardhat on. And he's not really interested in the aesthetic value. And then the one for the housewife might look more like a Macy's. It'd be more comfortable. It'd be more retail oriented. And so on and so forth. The one for the landscaper would have plants. The one for the hobbyist might have a canoe hanging out front and a hand carved something.

All the facades are different, but once the consumer goes through the door they're all in the same store. And why not, they all want to buy the same stuff. The interior designer, the contractor, the housewife, they all need to buy light fixtures and they all need to buy hammers and saws. Now that's a very long way perhaps of explaining the way your websites could be set up. There's no reason today with today's technology to have one website for everybody. You could have a different facade, a different splash page, a different landing page where you bring people in. But once they come inside of course, they have all the same product offerings.

And because we talked about the fact that you would partner or sell these opportunities to the hotels in the area, let me tell you what we did in Miami. We went out and we sold cooperative opportunities to the Mandarin, to the Loews, to the Fountain Blue, to the Eden Roc. And we created a series of splash pages called Miami by Mandarin, Miami by Fountain Blue, Miami by Loews, and Miami by Eden Roc. So when someone saw our traditional advertising or our online advertising, it was web enabled. It directed them to the website and they'd go into the Miami by Mandarin site. And then from there, they could go into the Mandarin site and have the booking engine and do everything they want to do.

Why do we do that? Well, two reasons. First of all, we want to provide consumers with what they want. But second of all, we realize that it's critical, it's crucial to be able to track this, to have metrics. Because when we used to do this in the old world with ads and magazines, the next year when we went back to sell them the hotel would say, "Well, you know what? We did it last year but we didn't get any sales from it. So we'll do it again, but you've got to give us a discount." But now we'd be able to go back to the hotel and say, "Hey, we're doing the program again next year." And they'd say, "Yeah, you know what, but we didn't get any sales from it." And we'd say, "Well, that's kind of odd, because if you look at the roles, you got 187 clicks last week. So that means that 187 potential consumers came through the website and into your website. Whether they booked or not, whether they converted to paying customers, that's not really our business. That might suggest that your rates are too high, that your sales people aren't good enough, that your booking engine takes too many clicks or whatever." But we were able to provide the metrics to demonstrate to them the true value of what we provided for them.

Jeff: I guess that gets back to the ability to sell and the ability to argue the power of online. And we discussed earlier whether people understand what this is all about. And whether a click through means you've done the job of selling or you've just gotten the people there but you still have to close. And when it comes to hotels, people may buy online. They may know what they want to do. But still, if they're clicking through, they may still pick up the phone and make the call and decide what they want to do. So is it up to a domainer who is trying to partner with them, an agency to help convince them, teach them, meaning the hotelier, whomever, why they still need to be involved or can't rely on the website, the clicks to generate the traffic as much as them to be able to close the deal? There's a partnership here, it would seem, to make this happen.

Bruce: Yeah, that really depends on how much skin you have in the game doesn't it? Because if your job is only to deliver warm bodies, then if you were working for car dealers, they will tell you all they care about is warm bodies. They call them ups, because the salesman sitting in the chair eating donuts and drinking coffee and the next person who comes in the door I have to get up to go take care of. So they're called ups. And car dealers will tell you, "We don't care if they're good customers, bad customers. We just want ups."

Jeff: Right.

Bruce: Hotels are not quite that magnanimous. So they're going to want people who have the propensity to buy what they have to sell. A Ritz Carlton is going to want consumers who can afford to stay at a Ritz Carlton and not Marriott customers, for example, even though it's owned by the same company. They want the kind of people that they believe are going to buy product from them. But it behooves you as the geodomainer to work with them because the more they sell, the more they're going to want to buy from you. Remember, they don't have really any interest in being on your website. They are not patrons of the arts. They are not excited by the technology. They are only looking for leads, and more importantly they are looking for warm leads that they can convert into actual revenue. So, unless you're going to provide them with that, it seems to me that you're going to have a very short lived business. So if you have the type of knowledge, wherewithal to actually train your partners on how to convert the leads into sales, wow, so much the better.

Jeff: I guess part of it also is partnering with Fountain Blue and the Eden Roc and Loews. They know their business. Hopefully they know how to sell and know how to close their deals.

Bruce: Jeff, the Fountain Blue just spent a billion dollars restoring that property. You can bet if they're going to spend a billion dollars, they kind of know how they're going to make their money back, you know?

Jeff: Exactly.

Bruce: You know what they say. A billion dollars here, a billion dollars there, pretty soon you're talking about real money.

Jeff: So says Senator Dirksen.

Bruce: So my guess is they do know their business.

Jeff: Let's diverge a little bit here. What about some of the other dot blanks that we see. We know .com is the Fifth Avenue, as it were, but we've seen recently Utah.travel. We've seen Michigan.org being tossed out there as sites that people can go to. Someone out there is asking about, he owns for example, TampaBay.tv. Okay, what about if you own lesser extensions, .cc, .ws, .biz. What's your feeling, not knowing whether you've capitalized on any of these or given them a keen eye or a hard look as to whether any of those work or you'll just do what you can to make the .com work for your clients? What's your thoughts about that?

Bruce: I think if you own one of the others, and a lot of the CVBs themselves own one of the others, then it's kind of incumbent on you to use traditional media of some sort to generate traffic. Because people aren't going to intuitively go to St.Louis.travel or St.Louis.tv or St.Louis.US or .cc. You're in a very different business. If you own the .com, you have the ubiquitous directive. And so people are going to go to NewYork.com before they look to Google. A lot of them are. And if I remember correctly, New York's is NewYorkNY&Company. So no one's going to find that unless they use a search engine, where intuitively they're going to find NewYork.com. So if you have one of the others, then you're really in the advertising business, because then you need to advertise that site. I mean, you're going to get some people who are going to drop in and you can get a lot of advantages from parking. But I don't really see how you're going to generate large traffic numbers by people intuitively thinking, oh, TampaBay.tv, that's where I'm going to find out about Tampa.

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